Donor Moms & Dads
This podcast explores the experiences of past egg and sperm donors. The host is Shaun Murphy-Lopez, who is a donor dad. He was known as Donor ID #1407 by Croygenic Laboratories in Roseville, MN, now owned by Fairfax Cryobank: https://fairfaxcryobank.com/
Donor Moms & Dads
John from New Orleans
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
I met John through his son Zach, who has a YouTube playlist that tells his story as a donor conceived person. John is interviewed in the first video: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtlrTLzLcouBaCM7PpBfgxZCvRkm4GRb7
Credit for background music goes to Dye O (and to my husband for picking out the song): https://music.youtube.com/channel/UCVMwu8OTZGR-NgRPdW9YcBg
Welcome to Donor Moms and Dads, a podcast that explores the world of egg and sperm donors who gave life to donor-conceived people. My name is Sean Murphy Lopez, and I'm the host of Donor Moms and Dads. In 1999, I walked into a sperm bank and made my first donation. Two decades later, my 20-year-old biological son reached out to meet me. What does it mean to be the father of a child you helped create, but may have had no contact with until years later? In this podcast, we'll learn about everyday people who made an incredible choice in their younger adult years and are now navigating unprecedented modern relationships. Welcome to Donor Moms and Dads. How do you form relationships with your donor-conceived offspring? John met his first donor-conceived son in 2007. Nearly two decades later, he has met and formed relationships with over a dozen of his adult children. John, thank you for sharing your story on this podcast.
SPEAKER_02My name's John, and I'm 66 years old, and I was born and raised in New Orleans.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so John, tell me the story of how did you become a sperm donor?
SPEAKER_02I certainly didn't set out to be a sperm donor. Um when I was growing up, I always had fantasies of um being married to Florence Henderson and being the dad on the Brady Bunch. I I really did. I wanted to have four kids. It sounds so wacky, but I remember wanting to have two boys and two girls, and life interferes sometimes. I was had some serious trauma early in my life, and it led me into a dark place emotionally. I had uh I'd become depressed, and and and it sounds laughable now, but when I was in therapy, I was in therapy for five years. When I was in therapy, I really felt bleak about the future. I didn't think that anyone would ever fall in love with me or I'd ever get married or ever have children. And so I walked around with this huge cloud over my head, uh, but I was seeing a psychiatrist that was in the middle of a medical center, a major medical center.
SPEAKER_01And and John, how old were you at this time?
SPEAKER_02I was I was 28 at this time. Yeah. And I I found this um advert for um a fertility clinic. And it was it was euphemistically worded, but I I could read through it and I figured I figured I knew what they wanted. And so there was there was certainly a monetary incentive, you know, you get some money for showing up and a couple of minutes of work, if you will. And uh, but um beyond that though, I really felt I wanted to link with the future. And I thought if I could father kids this way, even if I never met them, I would have some sort of tie. And on a spiritual level, I mean, this this gave me some some some comfort. And it had a nice effect on my life. It it had it had me staying in really good shape, keeping my body pristine, even though at 28, you you're pretty healthy no matter, almost no matter what you do. I watched my diet at that point. I'd work out like crazy. Um, I was fanatical about both running and swimming at the time. And so, yeah, so I wanted to be the best sperm donor I could be. I linked in with the lab and made uh actually made a lot of friends with the people there. And I have a uh I have an off-beat sense of humor at times, and so and I'm not really an artist per se, but you had to put the um donation to a little specimen cup and you had a black sharpie and I had to write my number on it. Okay, my number was 111, and I remember that. And so sometimes I take liberties and draw little cartoons on the side of the thing, you know, and the one that stands out mostly for me was I drew a big tennis shoe and almost like cartoon, like it stepped on some gum and was pulling it back, and you had the little tendrils sticking from the shoe to the floor, okay. And I wrote on there, watch out, it's sticky in here. And so so this was this this was this was my idea of making it into a fun day. So uh so we've had a lot of fun though. It was it was a good time. Um and it was what was that intake process like when you first do you remember when you first went to the and was it a sperm like bank clinic or a hospital or what it was a it was a fertility clinic that had an office in um the medical center, it was an entity unto itself, but um and they they're still in existence, by the way. And you know, this was the 1980s, so we pre-internet days, and so what year what year was this 88. 88, got it. Okay, 1988, yeah. And so um, I didn't expect Ancestry.com or 23andMe or anything like that to ever come about. So I thought this was, you know, who's ever gonna know about this? That kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01You said you made friends with some of the people in the in the clinic. What what was that like? I mean, I'm I'm assuming you don't keep in touch with any of them today, but you know, well you do, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I I actually one of them I actually did contact years and years later. I lived in New Orleans and then I left Louisiana for 25 years, lived in a couple of different places, came back. When I came back, I was entertaining the idea of writing a book about this, and so I interviewed this woman, the woman who ran it. She's a a PhD in, and I'm I'm not exactly sure which field she's in. Maybe it's something with endocrinology or reproduction or something, but she's she's got a PhD, and she's still there. I don't, you know, the other people I think have come and gone, but I was I was friends. I mean, and back then in 1988, I you know, we thought we were high tech here because I did some sort of genetic testing for like Tay Sachs disease and thalassemia, stuff like that, and um, and we were tested for STDs intermittently. I I thought this was really something, and I was happy to know that stuff about me that I wasn't carrying any genetic markers for diseases or anything like that.
SPEAKER_01Did they ask you to be anonymous or did they ask you if you'd be interested in meeting the kids?
SPEAKER_02What they did was interesting because they they actually backtracked on this years later because of advice from attorneys. But what they did initially was they gave me a paper and it had three options in regards to what you're talking about. One was, yeah, let everybody know everything. The other extreme was no, don't tell anybody anything, and they want to be contacted. The third option, or the one in the middle, is the one I chose, and it was I would be open to meeting someone if they wanted to meet me, if they reached out to me, basically. And this was why I created my own philosophy. And basically, the one thing I really wanted more than anything was to not intrude on someone's life because I felt like I had offered this product, if you will, or this sperm or this piece of me or whatever. And I did it earnestly. I wanted these people to have fulfilling lives, and even that even way back then, I understood that a fulfilling life comes in many different flavors. I also felt like it was sort of a human right to be able to meet um your biological father. I mean, it's it's throughout mythology and everything else. People want to know. I mean, I know that if I was in that situation, I'd be very curious to at least at least want to meet the guy and chit-chat with him.
SPEAKER_01Did you tell other people in your life, friends or parents, were you dating anyone or were you with someone at the time?
SPEAKER_02Or I I was not dating anyone at the time. And I think that's part of why this fell into my life at a good time, because I was you know, I was a little lonely to be honest, but I kept this to myself pretty darn well. Now, eventually, at some point, I did tell my parents, but I I think I was well into I was almost finished doing donating by the time I told my parents.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and what was their reaction? I I've already heard by the way, I watched one of Zach's videos where they where he interviews your your parents. Oh, yeah, and they said you're an out-of-the-box sort of guy. So I'm yeah, that's what that's what your mom or dad said. So, but what was your memory of how they reacted way back then in the 80s?
SPEAKER_02I my mother had a very unusual look on her face, and she she was, I think they were just like, Oh my god, this is this is John, you know. I mean, because I you're right though. I I I I've they've said that many times. I don't um, you know, they think he doesn't think outside of the box, he doesn't even know there is a box. Okay, so um, so yeah, so this isn't the first time I did something that was a little offbeat, let's say. It was like they were they were ready for it, right? Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Did you tell anyone else or was it pretty much just your not really, not really.
SPEAKER_02I I if I did, I've long forgotten about it. It wasn't it wasn't anything I I bragged to various people about or anything like that. I kept it more or less to myself.
SPEAKER_01So what happens next? You get done donating, your life goes on, and I assume it pops back up in your life at some point. So, what what was that point?
SPEAKER_02I had um a medical career. I was uh I'd become I'd become a physician and an anesthesiologist. Because of the therapy and everything else that I'd alluded to earlier, I was an atheist for a long time. At some point, that started to change for me. And I started to believe in an afterlife and the power of prayer and this sort of thing. It all came to a head, though, in a in a more unorthodox way, if you will, through a long series of connections and uh psychopharmacologist that I had known in New Mexico, I got encouraged to go to Brazil and do what's called an ayahuasca um experience. And ayahuasca's, for those who might not know, is um it's an indigenous psychedelic brew that the Amazonian Indians have been making for over 4,000 years. And it's kind of the centerpiece of their religion almost. They usually they have a religious ceremony around this brew. It's kind of what you would think. There's a fire in the middle and it's in the jungle and blah, blah, blah, and all this kind of stuff. Well, I went down there and I was very pristine in that I'd never really done any drugs or anything like that. Well, holy mackerel, um, I had uh an experience that just blew my mind. I mean, I went once I was under the influence of the ayahuasca, I shot out of my head, I saw all kinds of fantastic things. And then amongst all those visions, I see a vision of me in Colorado and going down to the basement in a kind of a wood frame house, and I see a young boy in this vision, and I looked at him and I'm assuring him that everything's gonna be okay. And he looks to be about 12 years old or so, and he looks a lot like me. Okay. So, anyway, so this was noteworthy. So I finish up my time in Brazil, come back to the United States, and I find out about the Sinkal Donor Sibling Registry set up by a lady named Wendy Kramer, who coincidentally is from Denver, Colorado. And she, what she does, it's it almost functions as a clearinghouse. Um, if you donate at a certain lab at a certain time frame, you can put your entry into that, and then she'll give you some number or something like that. And then, if, or if you are conceived from a lab and you know you came from this lab at a certain time, so eventually these people sort of match up and they go, gee, you might be the father of this person. Well, I was involved with them briefly. I wasn't involved with them super long, but I wind up meeting that young man that I had envisioned years earlier, and I also met three others, and that was there was a nice it was nice to know that they were out there. And it was amazing that I mean, oh my God, you know, not only is there a physical similarity, I would say every single one of them has some aspect of my personality as well. I've come down on this idea that genetics are not everything, but they're definitely something. Okay, I mean, there's new two ways about it. I mean, some of the craziest things too. I mean, when I met the first one, I met him at Disney World, and we he was 12, and we're going through Disney World, and we spent the day together in Disney World. And son of a guy, he's saying all the same goofy things I would have said at that age. I mean, it was like a time machine. I'm like transported back to 1972, and you know, it's just yeah, it was crazy. And and ironically, I had gone to Disney World when first opened up in 71, 72, whatever it was. And it was just it was just wild. I I never it was a surreal day for me. I'll just say that.
SPEAKER_01So, can you describe like the lead up to that day? You get on the donor sibling registry, and I'm assuming there's some communication with your 12-year-old, his mother.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Yeah, his mother. He did he did not know initially, but his mother had gotten onto that website, so she started writing me, and it was pretty funny because we started trading emails, and at first, she she later told me after I wrote you, because I I finished the email saying I'll be in, you know, I'll be here whenever you want to call me or something, whenever you want to email me or something like that. And later she said she kind of laughed herself, I'm never gonna want to talk to you, you know. And then, you know, that didn't turn out to be true, you know. So, you know, because I mean, I for myself, the curiosity would get the better of me. I'd have to know, I'd have to at least see this guy in person.
SPEAKER_01So, did you initiate did you initiate the contact or did she initiate it?
SPEAKER_02Well, because of the way donor sibling registry is constructed, it was mutual, but she she did not want to tell him. So she wanted, I think she wanted some sort of counsel from me, like okay, it's okay, blah, blah, blah, you know. But she couldn't understand. She told me, I remember in one of the early emails, she said, There's a part of this kid's personality, I just don't understand where it comes from. And she said, he loves to go to the sporting events, but he also loves to go to museums and concerts. And I'm like, that's me, you know, and so you know, because I mean, I if anything, if there's any like real prevailing part of my personality that seems to be pretty salient, it's that I'm open to a lot of experiences and um open to novelty and this sort of thing, and um, maybe to a fault sometimes. At some point, it came out. I kind of had a feeling that she was not gonna be able to keep this secret from him from everything she was saying in the emails. And I don't remember how long we corresponded before she told him, but it was a while though. It might have been like 10 months or something like that. He had a dad who raised him and he has a wonderful relationship with him. And um, you know, the dads of these children has always been a sensitive issue because I don't want to step on anybody's toes, you know, or or confuse anybody's life. Now, having said that, I can see just from a casual observation that if you tell these kids early on, they sort of accept it as, oh, yeah, well, you know, water's wet and the grass is green, you know. But um, if you if you wait until they're adults, for some reason it's it's more of a shock to their system. I guess they've already established an identity.
SPEAKER_01Somehow that rocks that you mentioned there were three other biological offspring of yours on the donor sibling registry. Did you meet any of them or what was the contact like within?
SPEAKER_02I met all three of them. I mean, I was living in Florida at the time. You know, Florida's a fun place to visit, so they would have trips down to meet me, and uh, and that was nice.
SPEAKER_01Were you married to anyone at the time?
SPEAKER_02I was in between, I was in between my two marriages at that time.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay. So you were a single guy at this point when people are reaching out, so you didn't have to tell like your spouse, hey, I have correct.
SPEAKER_02And by the way, my first spouse, I don't know that I ever told her. I mean, it wasn't like I was trying to hide it from her, but I don't think it ever even came up. Now, the second one I told her, and she actually met one of the she she actually met Bo, the first one. She and she had this is a second marriage for both of us. She had three children from her first marriage. It was a little too confusing, and she and her and I came to an agreement, let's say, that we would that I would keep this aspect of my life out of the marriage. And so we we lived in Atlanta. Basically, Atlanta was off off limits for the children, you know. I mean, but um, but yeah, so and and by the way, my wife, my second wife passed away a couple of years ago. So um she passed away three years ago. So yeah, so that's no longer an issue.
SPEAKER_01Did you have did you and her have any kids together? Your you and your second wife or your first wife?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I didn't have children with either one of them. I've read various accounts of other um donors, and I think the relationship is a special one, and honestly, I'm I'm quote unquote here for any of them. Should they want to contact me at any point in my life, I'm not gonna be upset at that. But at the same time, I don't expect to be invited to somebody's Christmas party or something, you know. I mean, it's just that's not the kind of relationship that it is. I mean, I have friends and family, despite my wife passing away, I have friends and family that have nothing to do at all with my donor-conceived children. And so I do kind of compartmentalize that part of my life, if you will.
SPEAKER_01So, how many kids do you have today that you know about?
SPEAKER_02I'm aware of 27 now. And um, and so I always joke, I think it's 27 in me instead of 23 in me.
SPEAKER_01Um way past the 23.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, way past that, right? Who knows what the future holds. But um, and they come in all shapes and sizes. I mean, have some of them that want more of a relationship, let's say, than others. Some of them, I think, just want to know who I am or want to know that, oh, gee, he's still out there, he didn't die of pancreatic cancer when he was 30 or something, you know, and and that's perfectly fine. That does not hurt my feelings. Like any human being, I've got a certain curiosity, but um, my curiosity does not outweigh their uh right to privacy because I know right off the jump, there were two times this happened, two times that people had no clue that they were donor-conceived. And for Christmas or some sort of gift giving occasion, they decided, well, you know what? Why don't we get one of those 23ME tests and see what see? Let's find out if we're Irish or French or something. And then the test results come back and Shazam, you know, dad's not dad, kind of throws them into a spin. I have one daughter in Seattle who lovely, lovely gal. She has a brother, also, also my child. She's told me about their situation. I kind of, you know, shield them from anyone. You know, I don't even acknowledge that I know them, you know. Ironically, I met her in Atlanta of all places because she but she was flying into the airport, is what it was. My relationships come in all shapes and sizes with these kids, and I'm happy with whatever they want to do. If they want to share any part of their life with me, I'm I'm open to that. We do meetups, and we've had a number of them. Created a bunch of t-shirts for the meetups and this kind of stuff, and it's been fun. The first one was 100% my idea. It was 20 November of 2020. At that time, I think I knew of 16 or 17 kids, I think. So we put together this meeting. We got an Airbnb in Golden, Colorado in November of 2020, and we met there, and man, that was one of the most beautiful. It was crazy. I don't know what to tell you. It was just absolutely crazy. I made a big fandango out of it. What I did was I flew from uh New Orleans to San Diego, got in a car with one of them in San Diego, and we drove from San Diego to Colorado and kind of made a little trip out of it. And so we get to Colorado, and all of them have descended from different places, you know. I mean, Wisconsin, Florida, uh, Indiana, Massachusetts. It was just crazy. They were all kind of descending on this one place. And so we get in there, and you want to talk about feel like an old man. I mean, I grew up, I grew up thinking, oh my God, I'm so cool. I'm so hip and da-da-da, and all this kind of stuff. Boy, that got put to bed real fast that time because they're they're tea they're talking this lingo, and I have no idea what. The heck they're talking about. It's like, and they all know what they're talking about. It's like, oh my God. And they had never met before. They live in different parts of the country. It's like, how does this happen? I don't get it. You know, how many were there? There were 10 at that meeting. And we were all in there, and uh, it was a blast. We had a great time. We had a great time. I I think I don't know what to say about that. It was one of the strangest things now to think about. We had since then we had other meetings, but but that first one for me emotionally just took the cake. And I created these uh t-shirts for them. Actually, actually, I don't let me just show you. I mean, yeah, yeah, show me myself. I'm so darn creative. You gotta see it. Okay, all right. So here we go. I was raised Catholic, but I can't help but be enamored with the uh menorah or the candelabra of the Jewish faith. Okay, and so here we go. Here's my t-shirt. On the front, you got golden, I don't know if you can see that it's golden 2020. Yeah, and on the back, I have this thing that says the flame is everlasting. Okay, and so on the bottom you have John, and then on each candle, you got one of the kids, whoever attended the thing in Colorado's name is written. So what I did was I constructed in my head, I constructed this little ceremony, okay. And I I'd come across it somewhere at some point. Uh uh, I can't say it entirely came out of it out of nowhere, but but what I did was I had them dim all the lights, okay, and I had one candle, and I'm telling them my story, okay. And um, I had given candles to all the kids in the in the room. I made this little story and I would talk about and I constructed it so each one of their towns was mentioned. I went to Wisconsin. Well, two of them are from Wisconsin and I'd gone there, and it was like the most bland, no big deal trip, but I'd set foot on Wisconsin, okay. And so I would mention Wisconsin, they would come up. Oh, oh, and then I went to Chicago and I didn't think I'd ever know anybody there. And the kid from Chicago came up, and then I'd mentioned, and so when they come up, I'd light their candle, and so by the time I got through with it all, everybody's candles lit and the room's illuminated, okay? And then we started playing We Are Family by Sister Sledge. Since we're on this topic, I want to mention this other thing because I know I'd sent you this picture earlier, this picture of Zach and I. What I'd done was, and he's got a certain sense of humor, and uh, and you know, because I if if one of the kids is listening to this podcast who I haven't gotten in touch with, take my word for it, I can be more formal, if you will. Okay. But when I was donating, I remember, you know, I I literally remember the magazines that were supplied to us to facilitate the donation. Frequently they have Playboy magazine there. So, and these kids don't even know what Playboy is nowadays, okay? But I went on eBay or Amazon or something, and I got one of the actual Playboy magazines that I had used back then. Okay. So I wrapped it up and I told Zach, I said, Um, okay, I want to give you this gift, it has personal significance for both of us. So he opens it up and he's looking at this Playboy from 1988, and it like slowly dawns on him. Oh, okay. You know, I forgot what it was girls at the SEC or something crazy like that, you know. And um, it was so funny though. Because and the mom, his mom was there, and his mom was laughing like hysterically, you know. So um so it was it was a fun moment. It was a fun moment for both.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a little uh uh what do you call that irreverent humor for sperm donors and their objects?
SPEAKER_02So I don't know. I mean, you know, it's funny because on the one hand, I want it to be known that I took this very seriously, okay. But the flip side of it is I have a sense of humor. So I mean, and and uh and you know, the other aspect of that is that these kids, the 27 of them, they come from a real wide variety of backgrounds as far as socioeconomic, uh, demographic, um, political persuasion. I mean, they're all over the charts, you know. And so I but my relationship to them has nothing to do with my, you know, feelings about anything, my politics or you know, anything for that matter. I think it's a more it's a more profound relationship and it's a deeper relationship. And the one thing that I've come around, I created this little saying because I I was talking to one of the kids prior to meeting her, and I said, you know, when you meet me, on the one hand, you're meeting a total stranger. But then the flip side of it is you're also meeting the most intimate connection you could ever have. And I really think that those two things sort of coexist at the same time. And so, and because I, you know, deep down my heart, I want every one of these kids to have a a profoundly satisfying life, and that's the bottom line for me. I don't care what shape or form that takes.
SPEAKER_01What do you think you have in common with your kid? Now you've been doing this for 19 years, basically, since you met your first son.
SPEAKER_02Well, psychologically, I heard it said that if you have if your parents die, for instance, you know, which my parents are are getting up there, and you know, the Great Beyond's not that far away for them. When my mom dies, for instance, I'll lose my connection to my past. You know, I mean, you're a nice person, you're an intelligent guy. I could tell you a story, and then but I'd have to explain the whole backstory and everything else. And I always say that my mom, my mom knows me well. I mean, she's known me ever since I was born. In fact, she was there there when I was born. So, I mean, I don't have to explain anything to her, I can tell her something, she instantly knows everything about it, you know. So there's a connection to the past. When she dies, that'll be gone. Okay. If you lose a spouse or a peer, that's a connection to the present. But children are a connection to the future. And now, even though I haven't really had, I haven't had a traditional relationship with any of these kids, and and they even haven't had a long-term relationship with them, I have enough established, like you're saying, about 19 years. I've, you know, they're part of my life. Okay. I don't have to see them every day, I don't have to call them every day, I don't have to see them for months. If they want to let 10 years go by and call me, that's fine too. But there is some sort of connection there. I know their stories to a certain extent. And so, yeah, I it's a special sort of relationship. It's a special, it doesn't mean everything, but at the same time, there's a there's a linkage there. And uh I think it's undeniable.
SPEAKER_01Do you I think you said something about personality before? Do you feel like that's probably the strongest? I mean, obviously, looks, you know, are one thing that a lot of people comment on um between donors in their offices.
SPEAKER_02You know, there's that, forgive me, I don't know the act, the acronyms Ocean, O-C-E-A-N. Um, it's like the five more salient psychological traits, and I don't remember what all of them are. One of the first one, oh, is like openness that we talked about earlier, about openness to novelty or new experiences. Um, I'm strong in that one, and I've noticed that with some of the other kids. I mean, one in particular, I'm thinking of, oh my God, if I'd been born a girl, that's me, you know, and it's sort of like, you know, there's no getting around it. You feel this sense of familiarity. Now, I think that's the thing that kind of blows my mind more than anything. There's some sort of semblance of personality that's the same. Yeah, I I don't know what more to say than that. I think that's the thing that really gets my attention more than anything, more than the looks or anything like that. Although the looks are kind of staggering too, because I look at some of these kids and go, aha, yeah, if I'd been born a girl, that's what I'd look like. If I was short or something like that, that's what I'd look like. If I had more heavy set, I'd look like this. And the other aspect of it too, you start to realize that, you know, I was born in New Orleans, as I said. But had I been in born in small towns, Texas, I'd be like one of the other kids, or had I been born in New York City, I'd be like one of the other ones. It adds a dimension, a spiritual dimension, as far as I'm concerned, because I spiritually I feel like we're all linked together underneath the surface. Probably when you go to the Great Beyond, all these things that looked like substantial differences between people, I think they all kind of melt away very quickly. And uh that's been affirmed by this whole experience. I've been confirmed in that belief.
SPEAKER_01Did you ever have any regrets like that you uh didn't get to raise any of them? I mean, basically you've been uh it is such a unique situation, and I'm in it too, so I understand, you know, you're a dad, but you're not a dad because you, you know, like you say you can go for a long time without talking to anyone. But did you ever wish that you would have had that with any of them? Or did you ever have a moment where you're like Disney World? Oh man, I missed out on any of those feelings.
SPEAKER_02Uh yes and no. Yes and no. Um, as I said earlier, I wanted to be Mr. Brady with the Brady bunch and have these pristine kids, and they would be great athletes and great students and and just wonderful people. They look like me and my wife, and who could go wrong? Okay. But life is, I mean, and this is just me getting older, you know. I I don't, you know, your ego can can want this, that, or the other thing. I think I don't know why people are born into the circumstances they were born into. But when I look back on my life, I could see where I was never going to have that. Um, it took a while for me to come to terms with that, but I did. I enjoy these kids, but I almost feel also it's almost like a butterfly. You know, if you want a relationship with them, just be calm and steady, and they'll they'll light on your shoulder or something. I I would have liked, I think, to have had a more traditional life, but it wasn't in the cards. And so I think for me to be the best me, the best John that I can be, certain aspects of myself I have to accept. Certain circumstances just played out the way they were going to play out. You know, I wouldn't have known that when I was younger, but as an older person, I could look back on that and see that.
SPEAKER_01That's really good advice. I'm wondering if you have any advice for there are a lot of donors out there who oh probably haven't made any contact with any kids. And then, of course, donors have they're so different. You know, I'm, you know, some donors really want to make contact with their kids. Other donors, you know, will won't answer anything when they're reached out to by their offspring. But so I'm thinking more for the donors who are open to contact, you know, in those early days when they're reaching out to obviously the way most people do this today is they get on DNA testing websites, might be the donor sibling registry, but more commonly 23andme ancestry DNA.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you can't hide.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, are you on those? I should say. I actually got on 23andMe after the fact. I mean, way after I mean, already had 16 kids when I got on. But I have a I'm from a large family. So with a small amount of detective work, you could find me, you know, because I've got cousins that are on it and they love the genealogy stuff, and you know, da-da-da-da. So there's really no hiding. But as far as advice to donors, I've enjoyed it. I think it's given me another facet of my life that is is interesting, you know. I would say set down some ground rules and actually wrote some. I don't know if you'd ever read any of Isaac Asimov, um, iRobot, and uh no, it he sets down these rules for robots, and it's a science, he's a science fiction writer. Okay, so he sets down these rules for robots, and I took that and mimicked it with as a rules for donor um sperm donors, okay. And one of them basically you didn't want to interfere with their life, like I said, and you didn't want to talk about the other kids unless you had their express permission to do so and things along along those lines. I would meet at a neutral place, I wouldn't meet them at my home or anything. Um, I think that's a little invasive, but kind of like I met Bo, I met him at Disney World. That was neutral turf at the time frogs. And because you wanna, I think you want to maintain some sort of some sort of boundaries because they're not your kids. Okay. They are and they aren't. And it's a it's a really weird, tricky thing. Um, because you want to be um, I think you want to be friendly and loving and let them know about yourself, but at the same time, you you don't, they're not gonna be over for you know, Thanksgiving dinner or something like that. If things develop from that point, it's I think it's different. You can take it as as it comes. The other thing, too, what I was saying about the politics and religion, I I would keep politics and religion out of the relationship. I mean, I've I've mentioned my religious views to a certain extent here, but I don't, you know, whatever the kids' religious views are, that's entirely their affair. I'm not gonna love them any less, you know, if they don't feel the way I feel about the universe or something like that. You know, ditto for the politics too. I don't really care what their politics are. Um, the relationship's not about that. If I was in their shoes and and I would want to meet the guy, and if he were to pass away or something and me not have a chance to meet him, that would be I would think that would be horrible. You know, I'd wanna I'd want to say hi to him and and find out what his motivation was. Because the sad part about Hollywood entertainment, this kind of thing, sperm donors is the butt of a joke, you know, and and usually picture some N'erduel frat boy who wants move, you know, money for beer and pizza or something, you know, and that's that's the whole motivation. But that was far from it for me because as I said earlier, I really I was at a very grave point in my life. Everything seemed like a matter of life and death to me at the time. And I was able to work my way out of that, thank God. But and now I'm at a very different point in my life where I can almost kind of look at at everything and kind of you know from a psychological distance and laugh at it. I guess if you live long enough, you can laugh at anything.
SPEAKER_01But I mean so well, you put it in perspective, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And thank you for interviewing me today, too, because you know, it's things like this that does that do cause me to look at it again and and once again reframe it, perhaps, or something like that.
SPEAKER_01I've got okay, I've got a couple of questions about dealing with families. Are there any times early in your experience where you felt felt like you made a misstep with dealing with one of the families, say your offspring and their their mom or the dad who raised them, or anything that you know you look back at now and you're like, I would never do that again. Anything other people can learn from?
SPEAKER_02Wow. Um interesting, interesting, interesting. Uh, if if you don't mind, I'd like to pivot for just a moment. Not having had kids the traditional way and not having raised them, sort of sidestepping that, if you will, I kind of felt like I didn't, I just I knew that my my peers that had done the traditional route, I knew they had they had very different experiences than I did. You know, they were talking about things about child rearing, and I'm talking about going to Bali or, you know, but when I met the kids, and um there's one in particular one incident in particular I'm thinking of this kid did something that aggravated the crap out of me. Okay. But then all of a sudden I realized, wait a second, John, that's exactly the same thing you would have done at that age. And so it's like I it all of a sudden it dawned on me, this is nature's way of holding up a mirror to yourself and going, ah, this is you, buddy. And I was like, oh crap. Okay. So it I think it's a way of humbling the parent, in this case me. And I think I got at least a taste of it. So I was happy, I was real happy about that because I felt like I grew up a little bit and I was able to mature a little bit, even though I didn't raise them for 20 years solid or something like that. Um, I could see that aspect of it. And so, you know, you want to um get on the highest mountaintop when they do something good, and it's something, oh, that's my boy, you know, that's you know, that's me. But when they do something not so good, it's like, you know, I mean, it's uh you know you kept your cool in that moment, I take it.
SPEAKER_01Is that oh god, yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no. I stepped in. No, I was pretty, I would first off, I was dumbfounded, like, oh, you know, and then I calm down, John. And I I walked in and I kind of did what I wished my dad had done when I was growing up in that side of sort of situation. Now I was actually very proud of myself, and I felt like I felt like, well, that's a little growth moment for you there, buddy. You know, you didn't snap at him or anything, you know, you're kind of instructive, you know. And that also happened with um some of the girls, too. Yeah. So it's it's been interesting because I met I met Bo when he was 12. I met the other ones as teenagers, the first four I met, and they were still very young, okay. 16 to 18 up in there, and I could still see more childlike aspects of them, you know, and then the ones later that you meet, like in their 20s or something like that, it's it's less informative, let's say, because they already had their adult demeanor, and you know, this is who I am, you know, or whatever. You know, it's still good. I mean, I still enjoy it. It's more interesting when they're younger.
SPEAKER_01I bet, yeah. Have you ever met any of the dads who raised your kids?
SPEAKER_02No. And I've been invited to meet three of them. I was going to do it, let's say. Maybe I was dragging my feet a little bit, but none of those three visits came off. But they were they were also some of it was timing, one of them was in Boston, and I was in Florida, and one of them got sick or something, went to the hospital. For various reasons, I didn't meet any of them, but three times I came close to meeting them. You know, once again, I've always felt like that's a tender sort of relationship. And I and I want to give praise and thanks to the dads who would raise a child that they know biologically is another man's child, that they would humble themselves in the context of a marriage to create a family like that. I think, I think they deserve a lot of credit. You know, it's not a mark of shame in my eyes, at least, just sort of a biological fact, you know, that somebody's fertile, somebody's not fertile, you know, it doesn't degrade their character or anything like that. You know, and like I said, in this case, I think it speaks highly of their character that they would put their ego aside to uh help create the family.
SPEAKER_01Well, the reason I was asking is because I went to one of my son's weddings in January and his dad was there. So um I talked to Wendy Kramer about it beforehand, and she said she didn't know about any sperm donors who have met the social dads who raised the kids. And it was awkward. So I mean, of course, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I think I'd be okay with it. I I I would I think I feel probably more for them than I would feel awkward for myself. Um, but yeah, no, I'm proud of the real role I played in this whole orchestra, if you will, but I don't have to be center stage, and and I think that's been a good thing for me to realize that because I think my personality was such that at least growing up at various times, I I would kind of oscillate actually. I'd be, you know, kind of shy and then forth outgoing and shy and outgoing and this sort of thing. But no, it's it's that's not my place, you know. Like some of the relationships I have are strictly email, and that's fine. That's fine. Uh, because I have a nucleus of them, as you know, I have a nucleus of them, like uh roughly, let's say 10 of them that they like to get together and and pal around together. They travel to each other's cities and visit and go on vacations and this sort of thing, you know. But there's others that's sort of like, okay, I no one in my town knows this, and I'm just gonna email you in the dark of night, and you know, and that's that's fine. It's perfectly fine.
SPEAKER_01Have you okay, that brings up another question. So have you had to or have you been in the situation where you've counseled any of your kids about, for example, I know a lot of I know a lot of donor can see people, they'll get onto one of the DNA testing websites and then they will all of a sudden, you know, see this what looks like a mistake. It's not the right ancestry, they'll be related to all these people that they're not related to. Have you talked with any of your kids who are in the middle of dealing with that? Have you counseled them on that sort of a situation?
SPEAKER_02I don't think so. I mean, I've counseled them on a wide variety of things, but nothing, not like what you're talking about here. Usually the things that I talk to them about are more like. You know, they want an older per. Here's here's one aspect. I think this is one of the best things a donor dad can do. Because I love these kids inherently, and because I have no vested interest in any of them, you know, they're not giving me money, and I'm not, I don't give them money. They don't, you know, made that decision a long time ago that money is not going to change, you know, in any meaningful way. Okay. So I don't have a monetary incentive as to what they do. I like to keep that totally pure. I mean, my incentive, anything I tell them or anything like that, is strictly because I think this is for their welfare. So, in that sense, I think I provide sounding board and someone to chat, chat with someone who's older and maybe understands their personality and their personal predilections better. And of course, I give practical medical advice to people that ask me for it, you know. Um, GS dub my toe. What do I do? You know, or I got a speeding ticket, what you know, you know, it's life advice. I don't know, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the advice is more just like as you would have a conversation with somebody, you know, and it doesn't sound like it's too deep. Would you say that? Or do you think do you feel like the advice doesn't matter?
SPEAKER_02No, I have it, I have it both ways. I sometimes it's superficial stuff, other times it's like, what's life about, or I'm dating this girl and she did this, or this guy did this to me. You know, should I read the riot act? I mean, I've had that kind of stuff, like boyfriend and girlfriend advice. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay, okay, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a little dad-like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I I have a I have some sort of experience in being a dad. One daughter in particular, I met her when she was 16. I've kind of been there with her through the ups and downs of her life. And so once again, I know her background, kind of like what I was saying about my mother earlier. I I know some aspects, I don't know everything about her life. I mean, who tells her dad everything, you know. And then I've got another daughter. She's married and has a couple of kids. And I think her social dad had some really catastrophic health concerns. And honestly, I'm still not, I'm not even sure if he's still alive, but she'll contact me and send me pictures. And, you know, this is look, look what we did for Christmas, and look at so-and-so's fifth birthday. And and so I'm involved to a certain extent with that. Oh, wow, that's beautiful, you know. And I I've I've gone out to eat dinner with them a few times and that sort of thing. You know, they live in another city, but I mean, I I've I've been with them in that regard. And I I can see where if their if their social dads passed away or in in severe severe ill health, that I could see where I would be like they want to, they just want to reach out to somebody and they want to say, hey, look, look, my my daughter got the award at school or whatever. You know, that's great. You know, I mean that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01They want some of that support, they want someone in their yeah, life who gives them that. Uh, what do the kids call you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's all over the map, actually. Uh some of them call me John, some of them call me dad. Um, some of them just say, Hey, you. I mean, old man. Hey, old man. Yeah, the one this one kid from Miami, he always says that. He always calls me and texts me, hey old man, you know, and so be it, you know. I mean, so I'll answer to all of them. So okay.
SPEAKER_01So you're just comfortable with whatever they decide. You'll you'll just kind of roll with it.
SPEAKER_02Pretty much, pretty much. Since my wife passed away, I'm not saying, I mean, there is no one-to-one, like you lose a spouse, and then all of a sudden, you know, these kids take fill the void, but to a certain ext, to a certain extent it does. You know, it's it's it's a two-way street. I mean, I think I'm supportive and vice versa. Them just asking me, hey, did this ever happen to you? What do you what should I do in this situation? Stuff like that. It it it means something. It means something. I'm just gonna say that um I've been invited to various things that uh uh once again, I realize that I'm an old person, you know. I'm not a young person. I'm not gonna go to what Coachella or something or whatever the music fests are nowadays. That's another time, okay. I'm happy to put that one behind me, okay. But uh yeah, I get some interesting invites sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Have you met any grandkids?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have at least I don't know how many grandkids I have, at least 12. Strangely, some some odd things have happened too. Like one of the kids lived about like a 20-minute car drive from where my second wife was from, which was really surprising because it's a relatively small town, and and I think they were aware of them. They knew the family at least. That was about as close as it calls I came. Like no one from New Orleans, one person has ties to New Orleans, but that was it. You want some sort of some sort of boundaries, and that and that's I think that's the thing. I mean, because I read something about, I mean, that's the thing. There's no Emily Post guide for here's the etiquette for a donor dad, you know. Yeah, no, it's something that's had to be worked out piecemeal bit by bit. And I mean, I I can't predict the future. I don't know if this is gonna be more commonplace in the future or less commonplace. I could see it going either way. Once again, it's a special relationship, but it's not a traditional relationship. It's interesting because when I tell people about my situation, which comes up from time to time, I get a whole slew of different responses. Some people think it's the greatest thing they've ever heard. I actually had one woman want to touch my forearm one time. I said, Well, what are you touching my forearm for? And she goes, I just want to touch the person that fathered, you know, 30, you know, however many kids I had at the time, you know. I thought that was kind of interesting. But I also have people that are actually appalled at this. And I know how I felt when I gave. I felt like I felt like my life was kind of over, and I thought, this is the best thing I can do before I leave the planet, you know, just give this life to these kids. Because I knew I was super healthy physically, and I felt like if they grew up, if they had my physicality and they grew up in a nice environment, they would be nice kids. I have a relative and they they're fully aware of my situation with the kids, and they've actually met one or maybe two of them. Um, they are appalled at me doing this. And if I ever mention something or I call them my kids, they'll jump in and correct me and go, Yeah, but you didn't raise them. And I'm like, duh, you know, I didn't, I never claimed to have raised them. But what am I supposed to call them when I'm talking amongst not them? I'm not in front of the kids' families or anything like that. How what else can I call them? I call them my cyber, I've called them various things. I call them my cyber kids, I've called them my internet progeny, I've called them a few different things, but basically I call them my kids, you know, and I don't think anybody's offended, at least not that I'm aware of. And I I wouldn't call them that to the social dad's face or something like that, but you know, the terminology, you know, is can be tricky, I guess. But I don't know, some people feel that way. Some people feel like if you didn't raise them and whatever, I don't know what they think, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've had a wide variety of responses too, so I know what you mean. It's it's everything from very negative to like so excited for me, you know, it's just all over the place.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think for the most part, people are are generally kind of um, they're a little amused and and kind of think that's good. I I think um for myself personally, it's been something of a lifesaver because I didn't have children with either one of my wives, and I have some kind of link to the future. So I'll pass away someday, and uh like you carry the banner for me there, bud. You know, so I got I got my tribe out there, so uh it does make me feel connected to the rest of the world, too. For instance, okay, so I've got I mentioned my daughter in Seattle, I've got this other daughter in New York City, and she has a vastly different life than I do, but it's kind of interesting. You just all of a sudden New York City is not an alien place to me. It's like, oh, this is where my daughter lives. Yeah, I think there's something humanizing about that. I mean, Wisconsin's not some bizarre state in the Midwest. It no, no, that's where my son lives, you know. I mean, it's it's it just familiarizes everything, and I think I feel more connected to the world in general vis-a-vis this whole experience.
SPEAKER_01So do you wish there would do you wish there would have been a limit on the number of kids or any other like things that you wish the clinic would have done differently? Um in in hindsight, you know.
SPEAKER_02This is I have one complaint about the clinic. Okay, as far as the number, I'm okay with it. I can live with uncertainty, and that's part of that whole idea of being open to novel experiences. If if somebody wants to visit me when I'm two weeks away from dying and go, hey, I'm you know, I'll be happy to meet them. Okay. The one thing that was different was as I mentioned earlier, how they had three options, and you wanted to be open to meeting them. If at first, the lab, the clinic where I donated, they would entertain various questions from the people who received my sperm. Because of something that happened entirely unrelated to me, they just entirely shut their doors. They they didn't want to talk to anyone in like so. In other words, Smike comes in there and says, Hey, look, um, this John guy, um, they didn't know my name, but lot 111 or number 111, I want to meet him. They just entirely shut down any communications. And that's not the way they represented themselves to me in 1988. There was something that happened, and I don't know which year, I want to say it was in the 1990s, but something happened, and their attorneys came in and said, Look, your best course of action is to never talk to anybody.
SPEAKER_01Got it. Okay.
SPEAKER_02So and I thought that was unfair that they didn't, you know, in hindsight, that they didn't notify me or something like that. But this is a minor, minor point in my life because I had so many things going on. I this is the last thing I was concerned about.
SPEAKER_01Did that you mean did you find this out later from one of your kids who went to this clinic?
SPEAKER_02And matter of fact, the mother, the mother of one of my children had specifically contacted the clinic wanting to know something, and and they would have loved to have met me a long time ago, but the clinic had been advised by their attorneys to not talk to anybody about it.
SPEAKER_01Do you have any advice that donor can see people who are thinking about reaching out to their donors and they haven't done it yet?
SPEAKER_02On the one hand, I think it's a good idea because I think I mean, I'm somebody, you know, they say curiosity killed a cat. Well, this cat would have been dead a long time ago because I'm curious about everything. But the thing is, though, I think it's better to find out. But prior to going on your journey, um, just know that your dad's not going to be Superman and he's also not gonna be Darth Vader. Okay, he's probably gonna be a regular guy. Okay. And and it's so funny because I've been given little Darth Vaders before, by the way, because that was the Duke. I'm your father. I bet, yes. Yeah, so it's it's kind of funny. I mean, I I'm happy once again, as I said, to feel this connection with these people that heck, I could have passed them on an airplane or something, not knowing who they were, you know, something like that. It's you know, once again, it's kind of nice to know that you're linked to people, you know, and I I want the best for all of them. I really, really do. I think they should meet, if that's reasonable. But then some like you're saying earlier, some people don't want to, you know, hit the bricks. I don't feel like talking to you. So it's a delicate, I think it's a delicate negotiation at first, but to the kids out there, don't check yourself before you wreck yourself, kind of thing. I mean, you know, do you have realistic what do you realistically expect to get out of this meeting? It's not like your life is gonna go to some other place or something. Or I mean, I I think it's I think it's nice to know. I I don't know. I mean, I'm not uh a great musician or anything like that, but let's say I've been a piano virtuoso since I was three. I might be nice to know that, you know, you know, I'm trying to go between the drums and the piano, go for the piano. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Did you ever get any advice or help from people? Just I mean, you've had to do something that you know most people don't do in their lives, just meet their donor-conceived kids. Did you ever get any advice from certain people or help from certain people or talk to certain people that anything that sticks out to you or anything that you did? No, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02I got no advice. I got I got no advice from anyone. This is this is I'm patient zero or whatever. Now, the only thing I could say that was any sort of advice, and by the way, I kind of gave you a short shrift about how I came across donor sibling registry, but it was the most bizarre thing. I'm walking around in this nice part of Tampa that has a lot of quirky restaurants. For some reason, I just had this bizarre intuition to go into this Greek restaurant. I went into this Greek restaurant, big screen TVs everywhere, and I happened to sit, you know, I was by myself, so it was a Sunday evening. I sat there and 60 Minutes was on. Well, son of a gun, I haven't seen that show in a long time. Let me let me just watch it because I'm waiting for my food, right? And then Wendy Kramer's website, Donor Sibling Registry, was on there. And she I listened to it intently. So I saw that aspect, I saw that segment on 60 Minutes. That was about as much, and I don't remember what was in it exactly. I had to figure this one out for myself. And to be honest, I don't know that anybody could really, at least back then, I don't know anybody can tell you because I can say right now, I've had to be different with each kid. There was two kids who really wanted were more forward, let's say, than I think they should have been. And I understand why in retrospect, I understand why they felt that way, and I love them both, by the way. Um, and then there's others that are real skittish, like they're just almost almost afraid to even talk to me. And uh I've had to be more laid back with them. I don't know. I think each each situation's been vastly different, vastly different. They had one where the mom died and the dad, interestingly, encouraged them to meet me, which I thought was really nice. That was that was really nice. I like that a lot, actually.
SPEAKER_01Looking back, you did this when you were 28, you're 66 now. The impactfulness of this obviously is pretty big now. Do you think you you almost kind of seem to have like a premonition, you know, that you really needed to do this? And and this was uh, I guess uh maybe a way to be a preordained under I'm sorry, or preordained, uh like faded meant to happen. But has the impact of it changed or changed quite a bit over the years, like compared to what you were imagining as a 28-year-old? Like what has that change been like?
SPEAKER_02Uh I guess yeah, I hadn't really thought of that, but you yeah, I mean, it certainly has changed because I mean when I first did it, I it was twofold. On the one hand, I didn't think I'd meet them. The flip side of it is I fantasize that they'd be these ideal citizens of the world, you know, kind of thing. Um, then I found out there were ordinary people, you know, kind of like regular kids who do all the things regular kids do. And I did get to meet them, as I mentioned. But like when I first donated, I really, you know, I didn't think I'd meet them, but I I hope for the best. And then I forgot about them for a long time. And then and then, like I said, the trip to Brazil brought it into my consciousness. I still didn't really, even after Brazil though, I still didn't really have it's just sort of a I don't want to say it was a goof, but it was sort of like, uh, you know, yeah, well, let's see what happens with this kind of. It wasn't like a major feature of my life. Now, after when I first met the first one, though, that was a profound that really impacted me. That impacted my psyche in a really interesting kind of way. And it made me feel good about what I had done because I saw this young man, and he, you know, but as far as I could see, he was a happy, healthy young man, and and that made me feel wonderful that I'd had a hand in any of this. And I met his mom told me her story, and this lady had struggled for like 12 years to get pregnant, and because evidently the I know the dad's issue there, he had um, I don't know if it's a remember it was radiation or chemotherapy, but he was rendered sterile because of it. And then the mom had her own fertility issues, and it it took taking her 12 years to get pregnant, and I thought, well, son of a gun, you know, this is I could see that this young man meant a lot to the mom. Yeah, it it it that made me feel good for her, okay, and and good, happy that I had some role in it. There was another kid, he had some siblings that had uh some sort of genetic disorder, and yet he was he was super healthy amongst all his siblings. That made me feel good that I could do that too. It's interesting, man. I tell you what, I I was living a um, I don't know if I want to say a privileged lifestyle, let's just say, let's just say a fancy lifestyle for lack of a better, better term. I went to go visit these people in much more modest surroundings. And this kid wanted me to sleep in his bed. He wanted to give up his room and he was gonna go sleep on the sofa. And it was very moving. I don't know how to tell you, it was extremely moving, and these were very deeply religious people also. It just makes you realize that people can be very wonderful and beautiful, and and more so than you know, because I went from um this particular weekend that I visited them, I was at a snobby restaurant and somebody in the party that we were we were eating, they were complaining because we didn't have the exact perfect table and this kind of stuff. Okay. So I went from that thing on Friday night to going to this little town on Saturday, and this kid's willing to give me the shirt off his back, they're really putting it in perspective.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you really have gotten to see so much of the world and just get all these experiences because of where your kids have been. Uh, this is a cool story. Is there anything else, John, that you uh you feel like you want to say about this whole experience?
SPEAKER_02This is what I want to say. If you're related to me, I won't fight. Give me a call. As I said, I'm not gonna force myself on anybody, but I'm always happy to meet these kids. I love them and I hope I hope they have wonderful lives.
SPEAKER_01John, thanks again for sharing your story. If you're listening to this podcast and are a past egg or sperm donor and would like to share your story so that others can learn from your experience, please send me an email at donor moms and dads at gmail dot com. Thanks for listening.